Quad build [ my own ] at last !

[stormbird]

So peeps

Tried 2 different pedal cars as a short cut to owning a quad , both ultimately resulted in failure for various reasons.

So yet again I haul my wooden mock-up out of the bike shed and continue it's development:-

So far i have the seat , pedal and frame as low as I think it can go.

The front will be narrower than the rear to enable the largest turning circle possible.
Current dimensions are
W/B 44" and the front and rear track will be 28" [ bit wider than in the pictures].

Next to add is the chains one to the lay-shaft just in front of the seat and one down either side to the rear wheels.
The reason I am adding the chains is to see if there is enough room for a cassette and rear mech , without interfering with me , nor sticking the ground as effectively
it will be in the middle of the W/B , not the best place to have something dangling down !

I chose these dished IGH [ Shimano Nexus 7 IIRC ] to be drilled with 6 holes and bolt directly to the disc mount on the rear wheels.
18T matches the two Dicta freewheels I plan on putting on the outer ends of the lay-shaft.

This is slightly behind current progress however I have hit a snag , so will go on the general forum looking for answers ?

Paul

 

[Carl?]

Hey, I read through your great thread on the Velocar project, and I am glad to see you taking on a new build! I was really hoping that you could overcome the problems, but it seemed like the combo of poor turn radius and an inherent design flaw in the drivetrain was a lot to deal with. Its too bad about this site shutting down, I feel like there is a good community here with a lot of knowledge, and a laid-back, helpful vibe. Are you going to migrate this thread to another platform at some point? Bent rider seems like it has a pretty good userbase, but I feel like it is a little hard to search for specific topics. Endless sphere also seems interesting. Anyway, hope I can keep following this project somewhere. Have you considered using a single boom and cross-arms for the front wheels? You can really crank the wheels then and get a tight turn, as long as there is still enough space for your legs!

 

[stormbird]

Hey, I read through your great thread on the Velocar project, and I am glad to see you taking on a new build! I was really hoping that you could overcome the problems, but it seemed like the combo of poor turn radius and an inherent design flaw in the drivetrain was a lot to deal with.

Very kind of you to say so , time I stood on my own two feet and stopped looking for using other peoples cast off projects as a short cut.

Its too bad about this site shutting down, I feel like there is a good community here with a lot of knowledge, and a laid-back, helpful vibe. Are you going to migrate this thread to another platform at some point? Bent rider seems like it has a pretty good userbase, but I feel like it is a little hard to search for specific topics.

Wondered about that FaceBook is no substitute for a forum , I am on Bentrider and post infrequently as a lot of the guys on here are not on Bentrider and as you say it was as much the community as the topics. Maybe they would move if they had to. I think it is worth asking

Endless sphere also seems interesting. Anyway, hope I can keep following this project somewhere. Have you considered using a single boom and cross-arms for the front wheels? You can really crank the wheels then and get a tight turn, as long as there is still enough space for your legs!

I though Endless sphere was only for E-bikes ?
I did wonder about just doing a Blog and letting anyone comment on it , how every that limits everyone to just my input , I am NOT that interesting and have long gaps where nothing happens as I am out gallivanting/racing and touring.

There are restrictions where I ride necessitating a short a wheel base as possible with minimum turning radius AND a short nose overhang.

there are multiple crossings like these where there are maybe 3 ganged in a row sometimes with only a narrow single lane between them and
inside they are much narrower than this drawing shows.

If you trike to do a single boom to get the clearance for your heels you need to have the wheels a long way forward so over long

A Zox quad does it like this.
or
have them a long way back meaning an over long nose ?

an Italian pedal car quite different to my mock-up , although this is very light under 19kg and is and only about 24kg with body.
They look like this :-

I need to look more like this.

All the best catch you again soon Paul

 

[stormbird]

So after my last failure I needed to prove to myself I could actually weld some thing [ As much to prove the welder works as I do ! ]

So we have a pair of threaded bike parts welded to a pair of split collars.

On the left is the screw on flange from a rear hub and on the right we have a right hand thread BB cup and it's locking washer.

As can be seen the right hand one is shorter then the left hand one , might be useful if space is a premium.
These parts are usually not used when a bike is parted out so there are plenty kicking about the place needing
using up !

I need them to build the lay-shaft so there will be one on each end with a screw on 18T freewheel
In the middle will be another holding a screw on cassette , yes I failed to weld a freehub body to one of these adapters failed weld
however i can use a screw on cassette for the test mule I am building , it is just a little more restrictive on gearing choices.

Paul

 

[Popshot]

A single boom is superior for the task. Perimeter frames will require a wider track to miss the frame on turning. If you can articulate the steering enough to intrude upon leg space you can squirm left or right a bit to clear the wheels with a single boom thus going even narower. You have no such option with two rails. A single boom doesn't need the wheels forward in the same way a warrior or street fox doesn't. Indeed putting them forward will cripple the turning circle and need extra strength in the chassis to straddle that long wheelbase. Simply make a warrior but with two wheels at the back as far forward as is practicable. That the pedals stick out is irrelevant. That is the place they have to go in relation to the seat. The only method of keeping overall length down is the rear wheel placement. Putting the ront wheels forward offers only negatives. Bringing them back takes loads off the chassis, improves turning and puts more weight over them for improved steering grip.

Neither lwb nor two rails will make an agile quad.

 

[stormbird]

So parts are slowly coming together ...

This is a short version of the lay-shaft that will be under the front of the seat to get the drive from the pedals to each individual wheel , so giving
both 8 gears and 2WD

So this is the right hand end with a BB right thread cup facing right and it's lock ring welded together then a split collar is welded to the left in the picture and a Dicta free wheel is screwed on.

The cassette mount is slightly different [ just experimenting with what I have ] and is the right hub flange from a rear hub with the same split collar

welded to the left side of it and the old style screw on cassette on the right side.

On this is the left side [ could try harder springs to mind ] so this was my first attempt with a hub flange and a non-split collar , ugly and sits
to far out.

As can be seen there is a large overhang beyond the free wheel , I have a plan to fix that and get the fixing collar on the inside of the free wheel
which will look much better.

Missing are the 3 bearings to allow the shaft to rotate current weight is 1.67 kg , with 3 more bearings and a full width shaft I can see it heading towards 2kg OUCH !

Paul still plodding on

 

[Popshot]

Are you going to use a L/H threaded freewheel or some form of locking mechanism to prevent unscrewing to have that inside collar?

 

[stormbird]

Are you going to use a L/H threaded freewheel

No

or some form of locking mechanism to prevent unscrewing to have that inside collar?

Not really ?
I have some I/D 15mm tubing with the collar welded to the end this will fit through the hub flange from the inside of the free wheel and be welded to a large washer on the outside of the hub, Then the hub will be trimmed down to neaten it.

Pictures soon when it is finished.

Paul

 

[Carl?]

What about using something like this; or would that be considered cheating?

Amazon.com : Steel Female Thread Freewheel Adapter for Electric Bike Scooter, Precision Fit, Durable Steel Construction, Easy Installation & Replacement : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Steel Female Thread Freewheel Adapter for Electric Bike Scooter, Precision Fit, Durable Steel Construction, Easy Installation & Replacement : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

[stormbird]

What about using something like this; or would that be considered cheating?

Amazon.com : Steel Female Thread Freewheel Adapter for Electric Bike Scooter, Precision Fit, Durable Steel Construction, Easy Installation & Replacement : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Steel Female Thread Freewheel Adapter for Electric Bike Scooter, Precision Fit, Durable Steel Construction, Easy Installation & Replacement : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Dan , Dan , Dan come quick he wants me to spend some monies

I am not sure how it is supposed to be used ?
All the pictures show something with a key way cut into the part , yet all the places it claims you can use it already has that thread on the wheel hub flange OR the thread is not used in that position ? and NON of the pictures show a E-Bike ?

We shall plod on .....

Paul

 

[Trickytrike]

I had seen those adapters and wasn t sure either.

This looks like a great build

So you will have two short chains to the back wheels, are you tempted by independant suspensions with sort of swing arms that pivot close to or on the axle ?

And so if I understand you are screwing sprockets on front six hole disc brake hubs so they have transmission and braking ?

 

[stormbird]

I had seen those adapters and wasn t sure either.

This looks like a great build

Only if I finish it !

So you will have two short chains to the back wheels, are you tempted by independant suspensions with sort of swing arms that pivot close to or on the axle ?

No this one is/maybe suitable for racing so as light as possible is the mantra.
Plan is build in wood to check I fit and all the parts have space
Build a working quad using any steel to hand , as the Finn's call it furniture steel
Then we have something we can try and shave some weight off ?
Aiming for 25-30kg with bodywork , a tall order.

And so if I understand you are screwing sprockets on front six hole disc brake hubs so they have transmission and braking ?

Well yes and no front wheels will be 20" with Sturmey Archer hub brakes.
Rear wheels are front 15mm through hubs with as you say a IGH 18T sprocket screwed to the disc mount.
Bit messy as the sprockets I have to hand are dished and the dishing means they must point in towards the spokes so the bolts have a flat surface to screw to. Puts the chain closer to the wheel which could prove troublesome.
DannyC found some flat 18T only about £6 each so I may need to splash out for those if this appears to work.

Paul

 

[Trickytrike]

Thanks I sort of see the picture.
I remember seeing sprockets with six holes and a sort of spacer plate to mount on disc hubs on evil express but unable to find again as any search on their site returns crawling herds of useless bits but not what you d be looking for. Much less fun than welding recycled metal anyway.

Did you consider a 15mm tube (say 3mm wall thickness) for the intermediate axle to save weight ? Or any light bearings they seem heavy enough ? The standard 15mm ID bearings can hold a few tons I wonder if thin ones are avalable ( like using half of a 15mm through axme hub for instance ? )

Good luck for this new endeavour

 

[stormbird]

Thanks I sort of see the picture.
I remember seeing sprockets with six holes and a sort of spacer plate to mount on disc hubs on evil express but unable to find again as any search on their site returns crawling herds of useless bits but not what you d be looking for. Much less fun than welding recycled metal anyway.

Yes I am sure there are many ways of skinning the cat !

Did you consider a 15mm tube (say 3mm wall thickness) for the intermediate axle to save weight ? Or any light bearings they seem heavy enough ? The standard 15mm ID bearings can hold a few tons I wonder if thin ones are avalable ( like using half of a 15mm through axme hub for instance ? )

For the ' shave some weight off ' then yes a tube is a good option.
I do have the bearings with the light pressed steel shell .

Good luck for this new endeavour

Thanks
Paul

 

[Trickytrike]

Thanks for pointing out the light pressed steel shell bearing, I only knew of the heavy duty ones for machinery.

 

[stormbird]

So life in the old dog yet !

This is my buddy for the 6 hour race at Curborough last Saturday , we did 30 minute stints and came 1st in our class PCD [ D being Duo ]
Next to the best Royce car you can see ours is a bit of a lump and quite heavy however I have ridden for 5 races this season either as Solo or Duo

This netted me an award for 1st Duo this race.

1st for the year Duo so I get a trophy and another award for 2nd in Solo [ PCZ ] for the year as well.
Not a bad haul for a 70 year old

Paul

 

[hape03]

Nice, and interesting! Will follow!

 

[stormbird]

Mock up running in to packaging problems already !

So added lay-shaft somewhere I though it would be out of the way of me and still work ?

So not much chance of squeezing in this short cage derailleur and it have a couple of inches ground clearance

There is an awful lot of conflicting stuff going on here !
To get a good turning circle the front frame needs to be 15" apart on the inside [ frame 3/4" x 1.5" ]
However to get the rear wheels at least 28" apart and well supported , the rear frame needs to be 19.5" apart on the inside so the lay-shaft has to be close to the seat to be correctly supported i.e not in the narrow bit.

This needs some brain time , obviously seat is to low ergo frame is as well question is how much does it all have to be raised ?

Fag packet guess 2" under rear mech + 4" for mech = 6" and we barely have 2" so at least 4" higher.
Think that will make seat 12" off floor instead of current 8".
What might help getting the cassette closer to me is raising the BB an inch or two ?

Paul

 

[DannyC]

I feel your pain and have been there before with chain-line, diverters and derailleurs that hit the sleeping policemen as you ride over them.
If this is not to be a racer and more of a tourer and around-town affair, does it need to be so close to the ground?
Is there scope for raising the main frame/lowering the axles?

 

[Popshot]

Why are you so intent on a lwb chassis? It will increase turning circle. I get that most if not all of the pedal cars you see at your races may well use lwb but track requirements prioritise stability at speed and you need turning circle as a priority for your road use. I do not understand your choice. If it's just because you want it then that's fair enough. I've done many a thing for that reason myself, but it's at odds with your stated needs.

To get around the need to hike the layshaft so much for the mech you could run an igh wherever is best between seat and pedals and then run the chain to the layshaft which itself can then be further back as it'll be running a smaller drive cog than the first gear on a cassette. This does suppose you have or are prepared to get a decent igh which I accept is a big budget item.