Organic Engines of Tallahassee, Florida

Telknor

Telknor

The main website for Organic Engines of Tallahassee, Florida is down. They are the makers of the FWD mid steer delta trike called the Triceratops.


Someone else posted pictures of this bike before. I'm curious what the angle is between the two halves where the steering takes place. At first glance it looks to be 45 degrees but reading about other bikes with mid frame steering it's 55-60 degrees. Anyone know for sure what the angle is on these? Looking at building one with a rear cargo section no more than 34 inches wide. The rear section on this bike and others like it appear to be much wider. In many cases allowing two people to sit side by side on a bench seat with sides and a roof over them. I know wider has more stability but at some point, it's too wide for bike lanes, trails, or paths. 34 inches wide seems to be the magic number that most commercial cargo bikes aim for to stay bike path friendly.
 
Too wide for use just about anywhere. I'm looking to do a narrow version of it. Also wondering if something like this drive line on a bendy four wheel articulated tractor would work on this style of bicycle to get power to the rear wheels too.


Yeah, those car topper cargo carriers like on that bike are what three to three and a half feet wide? The bike is wider than the topper. So yeah, it's pushing the way too wide limit.
 
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You could get the drive to the rear by that method but keeping the gearing same front and rear involves taking the drive to the central point first and then through a gearset and then to front and rear wheels. In other words the gears will need to be on that central UJ and then the front and rear drives come off there fore and aft. Front drive would need to come off the same side as the gears, a cassette with a 16T behind the usual selection would do, and the rear drive from the other side of the UJ, also 16T to match what's used on the other side. The front wheel would then only need a single freewheel sprocket. Ensure you use the same sprockets front and rear. To make maximum use of 3WD I'd take the rear to a jackshaft and from there to each wheel using the freewheels as a locking diff. Again if you keep everthing 16T on wheels and jackshaft you then keep the same gearing. This puts power to the rear wheel with the most grip rather than a std diff that puts power to the wheel with the least. It adds up to a noteable weight addition on what will already be a fair weight to start with.

A true python should have a 57 degree pivot but this style is not a python as the rider is forward of the joint and as such has more influence over where it points. The angle is less critical because of that.
 
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Yeah, I know that a three-wheel cargo is about as heavy as a four-wheel cargo. But I have to keep the people that make the rules happy, so I'm stuck using a three-wheel cargo. With the conditions of the back roads after rain or in the winter I want all the wheels driven not just one. I can still add a two-wheel trailer on it to get more cargo going places just at even less speed due to weight. But then again, I'm not looking to go super-fast as I like the scenery on my long routes.
 
On a side note, seen an AZ TimberWolf going through town. Fellow riding it was doing a cross country ride. Started in Seattle and was going someplace in North Carolina. Was pulling a two-wheel trailer behind it with all his supplies. Was stopped at local truck stop getting a bite to eat and more drinks.
 
A lot of these vehicles are that wide because they are designed to use the roads and perform the function of :-

Last mile delivery is the final leg of the e-commerce supply chain that physically connects brands with consumers through the delivery of the purchase. Goods are transported from a warehouse or a distribution center and arrive either at a consumer's home, business, or parcel locker.

Quite often operate in a city centre their design is dictated [ in Europe ] to carry a certain number of standard sized boxes [ if you like small containers ] this is designed for that purpose Quad cargo.

I would build a conventional delta trike with 2WD drive , you could spend years trying to get that drive to work and it adds unnecessary weight.

No differential just a jackshaft and 2 chains/freewheels . job done

Paul
 
Yes, I know Paul. I'm looking at cargo bikes because I need a last mile delivery style bike. I run a small off grid farm and routinely need to transport produce to market or distributor and bring supplies back to the farm. I was up until Oct last year transporting everything back and forth with a normal mountain bike and trailer until a storm downed a tree on top of the trailer destroying it. The trailer was nearly 30 inches wide and six foot in length in the cargo area. It had a two-foot hitch that connected to the bike, and it rode on four eight-inch wheels like you find on the front of a garden tractor for mowing the lawn. I could easily carry and pull 300 pounds of stuff no issues on this until I reached hills then it was a low gear huff and puff, but I'd get up them.

For ten years when I lived in Florida, I had a quad cargo that was geared for speed as there were no hills in the area of Florida I lived. I used that bike for everything that one would use a car for until the day someone thought it would look nice as a bumper addition on their truck. Was in the store getting stuff and come out to find a large pickup truck had pulled in parking space, jumped the parking block, and run over the bike. When police asked the guy why he did it he said he hated the way it looked and took up too much space on the road. Which is funny because I never rode that bike on the road only the grass sides or on sidewalks. I think he just hated anyone being environmentally conscious since he drove a big ass diesel truck and was known to "roll coal" on everyone who wasn't in a truck.

As for the drive on the trike. I was planning to build the quad with all wheel drive. Figure I could go the same route with the trike if I could figure out the transfer across the bendy bit in the middle. I had also thought to make the quad in the style of the bendy wheelhorse tractor. With fixed drive wheels in both halves and have it steered by articulating in the middle like the wheelhorse tractor in the video. That way I would sit above a trike rear end and the cargo in back would be over another trike rear end. No need for steering geometry then as it would just bend in the middle to turn like a large construction loader. Two 16 sprockets on the ends of a double U joint inside the main frame joints to allow transfer of power to the rear axle like the bendy wheelhorse tractor. But the state not allowing the quad on a massive bike trail / path which is part of two of my longest routes kind of killed the quad cargo project. By not allowing use of that trail / path, I would be forced to take much longer routes along two lane rural highways with no hard shoulder where large logging trucks and dump trucks routinely fly along at 60-65mph. Not something I want to do even on a normal bike.
 
I want another quad and would love to build one again. The problem is the State of Missouri won't allow it to go many of the places I need to go with it as they see it as a pedal Go-Kart or pedal ATV, not a bicycle. But if it has two or three wheels they don't care. If it's pulling a one wheel or two-wheel trailer they don't care, Mutiple trailers they don't care. Slap four wheels on the bicycle itself and they go nuts throwing regulations and laws at you like you are supposed to know this stuff by heart.
 
That I know, bureaucratisch mazes and contradictions.

I myself would go for a wider Streetfox with trailer.

Bicycles are allowed to 1m width, and the trailer can't be wider than the widest part of the bike.
The cargo is allowed to overhang 10 cm on each side. No mention about length.

So, a 1m wide streetfox with midmotor for "main drive", and 2 front wheels with hub motors for all road support sounds plausible for Belgium.
A custom trailer should allow for the transport of a 4x8 plywood sheet.
 
What maddox said - A tri-motor trike would pull like a tractor.
Interesting to design such a beast, but unless you could come up with a hub motor with an oversize axle, there would be issues.
You could just use complete bike forks - That's been done
It would certainly have plenty of traction, from the weight of the batteries needed😁
 
I opened up a few hub motors. Non are very conductive to 15 to 20mm shafts.
It can be done tough. But in effect, it means you take the core and machine the hell out of it.
 
Don't most hub motors have an m14 shaft slimmed down at the sides to 3/8" to fit std dropouts? I've no idea of tensile rating but would expect it to be low. I'd think it may just about do a light rider but would be marginal.
 
They do make single side mount hub motors for electric bicycles with single arm mounts. Looks busy as all hell on the rear wheel as everything is routed to one side of it. Disc brake, drive chain (belt, shaft), and rear gear selection method.

Light I am not. 265 pounds on me, plus the weight of the bike, plus whatever cargo I'm carrying on the bike. Though anything on the trailer is more on the trailer than on the bike or is it even split? Thought of doing a quad wheel trailer or would that still count as a quad wheel bicycle even though you don't ride it? I know I've seen the three-wheel delta trike trailer that you hook up a trailer hitch arm to your bike that directly steers the front wheel on the trailer and the other two wheels are just mounted to the sides at the rear of the trailer.
 
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What about a delta with just enough power for yourself and personal stuff maybe a few bags of groceries ?
Then power the trailer for the times you need to tow that with a load on it ?
If you can't sit on the trailer and when unhitched it sits on the ground motionless it can hardly be anything other than a trailer ?
I know you don't want any conflict with authorities [ it never ends well ]

Paul
 
Popshot said:
Don't most hub motors have an m14 shaft slimmed down at the sides to 3/8" to fit std dropouts? I've no idea of tensile rating but would expect it to be low. I'd think it may just about do a light rider but would be marginal.
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The ones I opened up used a 3/8 shaft with some nubbins here and there to keep the sungear and planetcarrier in place. And the cable entry groove doesn't help in any strength respect.
 
Telknor said:
They do make single side mount hub motors for electric bicycles with single arm mounts. Looks busy as all hell on the rear wheel as everything is routed to one side of it. Disc brake, drive chain (belt, shaft), and rear gear selection method.
Click to expand...
Here is 1 that sels single sided hubs/wheels.

Not even that hidiously expensive.
 
All of those single side hub motors are over 750 watts. The state I'm in is very strict on the 750-watt max for an electric bicycle. Anything over 750 and they classify it as an electric motorcycle. Which again bars it from use on bike trails and paths. Which in turn brings me to another question. When you have multiple hub motors, or a mid-drive and hub motors is that limit on each motor or the total combined power of all of them?

Is it a 750-watt mid drive and 750-watt hubs or 250-watt mid drive and 250 hubs for total of 750-watts?

That's another area where they are not clear on, and you get conflicting answers from the people making the rules.

Another question is would the higher wattage motor be ok if the controller limits it to 750-watts max?

Again, the officials give conflicting answers on this too. So, I'm asking if anyone else has already dealt with this before.
It also doesn't help the rules are not universal across countries. Most everywhere other than the US a four-wheel bicycle is just that a bicycle. Also, they have a strict limit of 250-watts on any electric bicycle. Anything above that wattage is then classified in a range from moped, scooter, to motorcycle. In some places you can go the route of Mobility scooter which is in a completely different category from bicycles or motorcycles and more in line with wheelchairs.

I haven't even talked to these people about my plans for taking the quad idea to the lawn and garden side of things with garden tractor style attachments that allow you to use the quad bicycle as an HPV lawn tractor with electric mower attachments or garden tillers, exc.... Because just getting straight answers out of them on what is or isn't a bicycle or allowed in certain areas of bicycle infrastructure has been a headache and a half already.
 
Oh, that. Just keep all the markings mentioning 250W, and don't show the raw power trough speed, and nobody will lift an eyebrow.

For Belgium it's the same bureaucratic annoyance. So, my Bafang BBS02b is marked "48V 250W-ex"
 
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