have you noticed ?

Hi all

So been thinking :-

20220920-170245.jpg


Does this [ above ][ if it was a trike ] Python fwd and virtual pivot front end.

Different.jpg


Look a lot like this [ above ] RWS FWD tadpole trike ?

I reckon both could be made from the same chassis , just swap the pedals from end to end and move the seat and steering......

Shame I don't have the time to have a go 😢

2 vehicles in one build , both with a shed load of problems to resolve :D

Paul
 
Hello,
Does anybody have practical experience with rear-wheel steering?
I know that there were a few professionally built and commercially sold models, and many more one-off DIY! Some 20 years ago, working in night shift (armed guard in failed bank, but still with full treasure), I made some sketches of construction and diagrams of turning in various cases. Results, from dilettante with a lot of spare time: small turning circle, almost around front inside wheel, in drastic movements. Bad - rear part of HPV should hit obstacle: pedestrian, electric pole, traffic light pole, or stopped car. Especially with two wheels at rear (quadricycle or delta trike)… Virtual steering (known sometimes as Wass) could be a little better, pushing rear wheel(s) toward outside of curve - better stability?)
Many people say that it would be nervous/unstable in direction in every speed over walking speed?
Regards,
Zoran
<Bern-Belgrade-Bern-Belgrade>
 
Zoran

I did a shed load of research and came to the conclusion that is was not for me.

There was a very limited production velomobile Velayo that did not have a bad press and there are 2 velomobiles called Different that appear to work ?

However I believe they only work because the turning circle is severely limited , stopping you getting into the danger zone however this results in large diameter turns.

This is a home build German rear steer on the video it seems to perform ok at low speeds , how it handles when ridden fast ?
walk around it here and more here Munich HPV and fortschrittrotz

For me it was not a good idea especially as the rear wheel pivots in the luggage space.

Paul
 
Thank you, Paul!
My impressions (not experience & knowledge), are similar!

Just to be different - could be nice adventure, but only if it is practical too, or motives are strong and possibilities, too.
I do not have any one positive condition on my side, for experiments, especially of long-term types: no time in front of me (have 74 years), no good workshop, no special tools, no knowledge & experience, no money (to pay for everything I miss), no strong motive anymore for creative adventures... Of all necessary, I have only understanding, tolerant and supportive wife (the second one now)…
However, I follow with great joy all discussions about "normal" ordinary issues, but even more about unorthodox, rare and untested solutions. After some years, I return to Zombie community, just in a time when start planning my second pedal-powered quadricycle. So, I could check my ideas...

Of course, successful members' creation make me happy, the same as good constructions from people everywhere around (found on internet, and other clubs/forums). Any finished HPV is for respect - if it is safe and cute if possible!
 
Thank you, Paul!
My impressions (not experience & knowledge), are similar!

Just to be different - could be nice adventure, but only if it is practical too, or motives are strong and possibilities, too.
I do not have any one positive condition on my side, for experiments, especially of long-term types: no time in front of me (have 74 years), no good workshop, no special tools, no knowledge & experience, no money (to pay for everything I miss), no strong motive anymore for creative adventures...
I will be 70 in January so not to far behind you , being interested and wanting to learn are the right qualities to have and this forum is a great source of ideas.
This is my thread My life with Python trikes and I decided to entry the Human Powered vehicle World Championships you can see my struggle to get to the start line here WC 2024 a folly to far I did not come last !
Of all necessary, I have only understanding, tolerant and supportive wife (the second one now)…
However, I follow with great joy all discussions about "normal" ordinary issues, but even more about unorthodox, rare and untested solutions. After some years, I return to Zombie community, just in a time when start planning my second pedal-powered quadricycle. So, I could check my ideas...
Quad fever it has gripped several members of the forum , me included , as I also race Pedal Cars which are all quads !
370540937_10161763277812450_2069107034695076360_n.jpg


No me however a taster of a race
Of course, successful members' creation make me happy, the same as good constructions from people everywhere around (found on internet, and other clubs/forums). Any finished HPV is for respect - if it is safe and cute if possible!
Yes there is a wealth of stuff out there , the main problem is you see a finished HPV , however few people follow up and tell you how it performed , it's weakness's and places where it could be improved.
My threads are ' warts and all ' usually because I am in a pickle and hope the forum can come up with a solution :D (y)

Keep posting it is great to talk to you and your English is excellent.

Paul
 
Hello, Paul!
I spent some time "designing" my second quadracycle, a little on paper (sketches made by hand and pencil and future use of geometric tools and knowledge) as I do not know any computer planning - or in my mind (which is easier, but not more accurate)… According to old German practise and theory closer to us in two centuries, we in Serbia (or old Yugoslavia) consider "design" more as artistic shaping of already generally planned industrial or DIY products... and more use terms that could be translated as planning, projecting and even constructing - just for the first phase of process (in our mind, on paper, or on computer)…
When I figured issues of posting pictures to Forum, I shall publicise some photos and sketches, just for illustration of my dilemmas and questions. Later, maybe some of the planned solutions. General idea is to use as much of components that I already have and make simple, cheap and quickly build quadricycle.
--- ---
I was following old Atomic Zombie web-site and found may interesting ideas and solutions, but not use many of that - built my first quadricycle in way that I always wanted, with some inherent issues, so that I abounded it a few years ago, almost finished. Do not like it too much anymore.
You are right, even when members run their topics to the end of construction (many left projects in a way) - there are no stories about experience of testing and using them. Especially, it is useful to discuss mistakes and fails!
--- ---
Pedal cars races (quadricycles) are great events, but HPV championship (all categories), too. I am not sure that there is anything similar here in Swiss. They have down-hill races, but mostly for children and for adults look quite dangerous, so I promised my wife that I shouldn't built one and run down the Alps! Pedal car races are not for me either. No conditions for that, my hart and lungs are of not great capacity and muscles even less. If I am not wrong, some decades ago, in the age of magazines, I found a few articles about pedal car racing in England... They were quite unorthodox constructions, mostly naked... However, there were a lot of interesting and useful solutions, but for me just platonic love in that period. Now, all of them look quite well built with nice aerodynamic bodies. You well described importance of aerodynamic at various speeds. Something like that I was thinking, but without exact figures. For my seeds of 15-20 km/hour in average, some car-body should be helpful but not of great importance? Later I could built simple fabric body over light frame... It seems to me that some of cars have quite tinny wheels, as ordinary bicycles wheels, narrow of big diameter?
--- ---
I started to study thread about your Python three-wheeler, with central-steering system... Just covered two first pages. I studied such system a lot, collect a lot of photos and diagrams, but I am not sure if I would consider it now. As I remember, there were systems with steering axle in front of the seat or behind the seat, always with castor angle? In any case, I shall read all of your topic, there are always interesting details that could be useful, or just interesting...
Well, one quadricycle with central steering system: steering axle behind seat, fixed in two steering heads attached to backrest? Front wheel power: no differential, no universal joints: just one jack-axle with pulleys on each of the wheels (slipping in curves and around corners?)… Slipping belts are rude version of speed-changes, too. Naked rims of 16" attached to spokes of two 26" wheels could improve strength and stiffens of big wheels? One big wheel is with 3-gear hub and coaster-brake and another with drum brake - have them on bicycle got from my step-son... Distance of the wheels, smaller, around 10"? Rear wheels of 16", with brakes, wider - around 25". Well, enough for after-midnight thinking/dreaming!
--- ---
My English language was improved through decades, and now declining a little. No talking a lot, juts reading and writing, for e-mails and internet forums. Mostly, language of people involved is simplified a lot, some mistakes often happened, slang and abbreviations used a lot (not quite so here in Forum)… Mess in writing as a mess in minds? In elementary school, everybody wanted to learn English: German wasn't popular a lot, French the same. Russian must accept just minority of pupils that must to do that (no good school success before that)… Our father forced us to learn English in spite that his knowledge was modest - learned something in short "partisan course" after 1948 and Yugoslavian brake with the the USSR... He said: learn it well, it is language of the future. So, both my brother and I was excellent in English during elementary school. Unfortunately, in my secondary school (gymnasia as we call it, or grammar school <UK>, or high school <USA>?) - I went backwards having three real bad teachers (professors as they were called) in four years…
However, later I got motive and possibility to improve it. At the end of sixties and early seventies in Belgrade appeared bookstores with foreign, mostly English books and magazines, dedicated to history of motorisation and aviation, railways too - I loved that too). I discovered British Council (English library), American Library too, avoiding Russian Cultural House. However in one Russian magazine I found the first articles about pedal-cars that people there built for ordinary transport, in provinces, small towns and villages... So, I improved my English, mostly in reading, but talking too, during summer holidays at Adriatic Sea Coast (a lot of nice foreign girls were there)… Later, I was working as a lawyer for Belgian-Serbian company and official language on meetings, chatting too, and written correspondence was English language. Nobody of us knew French that Belgians used. I could write letters, memorandums and later contracts and statutes - directly on English - no on Serbian to be translated. I had good colleague, she was excellent in English and I in the law, so we were a good pair... Later came internet and my English became wider, but neither better nor richer...
Good night,
 
Last edited:
Hello thanks for sharing so much life experience about hpv, quadricycles and how the English language helped bring together passionate people of this community over a few decades.

I have been contemplating the idea of building a quad, i have the impression it can be made more stable and shorter than a tadpole trike.
What are your experiences with quads, especially about cornering and stability ?


Rear wheel steering front wheel drive configuration i have no direct experience with, it would be very convenient mechanically, but as you said it seems like it has been used on a limited number of vehicles with restricted speed or turning radius to keep stable and avoid obstacles.

Going back to the much interesting unorthodox idea from Paul, I have the impression that the VPS geometry would need to be different for front or rear wheel drive ? Could it be reversed so ?
The front wheel drive VPS really appeals to me, i think it could combine the efficiency of the short chain, while having stable steering ( positive trail ) without a big steering pivot above the wheel.
 
To post pictures you first need to find a picture hosting site ?

Here a Google search free picture hosting sites has listed some sites .

I use postimages and have no experience of any of the others.

Once your pictures are on a hosting site you need to find the URL the picture is stored under.

When editing a post in the menu above the text bock you see an icon looking like a mountain in a picture frame ? [ or use Ctrl p ]

If you insert your URL into the box , fingers crossed your picture will appear.

These are the sketchiest instructions , pick a picture host , upload a picture , try to follow my instructions.

Comeback if you fail and we will help you over any areas you are struggling with.

Use this thread for trying out your pictures , it's mine and I don't mind !

Of course Brad has a Quad plan in the range and also there was a Quad conversion for the DeltaWolf I have that stored away somewhere.

all the best Paul
 
Hello thanks for sharing so much life experience about hpv, quadricycles and how the English language helped bring together passionate people of this community over a few decades.

I have been contemplating the idea of building a quad, i have the impression it can be made more stable and shorter than a tadpole trike.
What are your experiences with quads, especially about cornering and stability ?


Rear wheel steering front wheel drive configuration i have no direct experience with, it would be very convenient mechanically, but as you said it seems like it has been used on a limited number of vehicles with restricted speed or turning radius to keep stable and avoid obstacles.

Going back to the much interesting unorthodox idea from Paul, I have the impression that the VPS geometry would need to be different for front or rear wheel drive ? Could it be reversed so ?
The front wheel drive VPS really appeals to me, i think it could combine the efficiency of the short chain, while having stable steering ( positive trail ) without a big steering pivot above the wheel.
Hello,
Through many decades I liked three-wheelers of all configurations ("Missing Wheel" was one large forum, long time ago), because they are so unorthodox. However, there is a few practical reasons to have three wheels, from my humble knowledge and even weaker experience of dilettante, amongst masters:
  • they always accommodate to any kind of surface - no twisting forces on chassis;
  • simple steering system and construction if one wheel is at front (mostly known as "delta")
  • simple power transmission if one wheel is at rear (known as "tadpole" configuration and somewhere "reverse trikes");
  • complete chassis is simpler and lighter;
  • smaller travel of suspension is possible, could be harder and even missing, with fat tyres on bigger wheels;
Disadvantages:
  • could be easier to capsize (roll-over?) then quadricycles;
  • constructor must carefully positioned centre of gravity - near two wheels on one axle;
Simply, quadricycles are opposite to written above.
Easier could be made shorter? My experience with my first quadricycle is modest, I didn't continue its developing and testing. I wasn't satisfied with its appearance, with ist too high seating position and so on... Some details are well imagined and realised, worked well, but I do not like it in general. I shall give it as a present to nearby settlement of alternative-living people - small camp of "circus wagons"... Or, I would cannibalised it and some components use for the second quadricycle... So, my experience is based on a few acquaintances having 2-wheels, 3-wheels or 4-wheels recumbent HPVs, some naked some velomobiles. Each of them have own opinions, often quite opposite, about any of systems and solutions! Of course, knowledge gathered on this great Forum and a few else, stories on internet, helped too...
--- ---
For persons that have all conditions for experimenting, it would be interested to try:

  • VASS-VPS (could be at front or rear???, could be with one or two wheels???);
  • or rear-wheel steering (not very promising results), or even better with central-steering axle, as compromise between front-wheel steering and rear-wheel steering;
Last evening, while I was writing, I was thinking and "designing" central steering axle system and of course, made a few big mistakes! Three issues solving in the same time - not for my old brain (but, I enjoyed). Anyway, I do not have any proper condition for such experiments. This time - if/when I start, I must construct practical quadricycle for ONE person! Simple, cheap, quickly built!
Ciao,
 
To post pictures you first need to find a picture hosting site ?
Here a Google search free picture hosting sites has listed some sites .
I use postimages and have no experience of any of the others.
Once your pictures are on a hosting site you need to find the URL the picture is stored under.
When editing a post in the menu above the text bock you see an icon looking like a mountain in a picture frame ? [ or use Ctrl p ]
If you insert your URL into the box , fingers crossed your picture will appear.
These are the sketchiest instructions , pick a picture host , upload a picture , try to follow my instructions.
Comeback if you fail and we will help you over any areas you are struggling with.
Use this thread for trying out your pictures , it's mine and I don't mind !
Of course Brad has a Quad plan in the range and also there was a Quad conversion for the DeltaWolf I have that stored away somewhere.
all the best Paul
Thank you, Paul!
I couldn't find anywhere instructions for posting pictures, but only some discussions on a some threads... Now, you made all that much clearer to me! So, I will try your suggestions and ask for instructions if I failed. You are generous host and i abused that already chatting off-topic, mostly!

Some forums where I am member use similar system but problem is that some of hosting sites closed archiving of pictures and all pictures in forums disappeared! Better system is when pictures are directly posted to forum and keep there in archive forever... However, running such websites is expensive and often ask for membership fees and allow advertising a lot...

Ciao,
 
For the people that do not know who could be such grumpy old person on wheel-chair: that is NUMBER ONE, from comic strip "Alan Ford", published in Italy soem decades ago and reprinted a few times in old Yugoslavia and now in my Serbia. It had had enormous popularity form the beginning and still has cult status between new generations on Balkan Peninsula. Even in Italy it wasn't so popular and in the USA was a flop!
However, another character is closer to me - GRUMF! Text is "Who does not want when can, should not can when he want!"... Croatian translation from Italian was The Law (decades ago and still now even in Serbia, better than Serbian variant that flopped...

Alan-Ford-Grumf.jpg

Ciao,
 
The first probe for posting of pictures!

moto-klasika-Zoran-R-Pualic-000.jpg


Success? I saw it! I will see after sending message...
(y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) (y) welcome to the fold :D


Can I suggest you add a couple of pictures of your old build in this thread and then start a new thread for your ideas for the possible build.

Just thinking your new thread will have a better title than this thread and more people will see it and help where they can ?

Paul
 
Hello, Paul,
Thank you for information about cute, well designed and constructed aluminium tadpole three-wheeler! Precise work, indeed. Light construction, too. Maybe too expensive and ask for experience, patience and precision in work, that I lack? If I am not wrong, it doesn't have any kind of suspension? Later, I would read comments about creator's experience in riding (easy to translate entire pages rom German to English).
I have stick-welding apparatus and had a few testing, but I am not experienced in that. Beside that, I have micro-modest workshop in a basement of our building. Not good idea neither to weld there, nor to use grinder. I was welding a few times on our balcony, but people do not like that to see. Probably that wood construction would be chosen as simplest, cheapest and quickest build...
--- ---
I noticed that some of designs presented here to us Zombies - do not have suspension on front wheel/wheels, some on all three wheels and one on all four wheels? Maybe central back-bone chassis is flexible under vibrations and bumps/holes, but in torsional way too?
Similar dilemma for me: is it safe (for my design) to stay without front brakes, as some of the presented HPVs?

That should simplified construction if based on similar ideas presented here? Cheaper, simpler and lighter front components.
I know that our great host "Radical" Brad Graham and his greatest wife "KoolKat" Kathy McGowan done excellent job through many years designing, constructing, testing and riding all of the quite various examples presented! Many HPVs were produced successfully by their plans and instructions and used safely!
--- ---
Paul, thank you for patience toward me, the same as for interesting and useful information and suggestions!
Now, it is time to start my own thread and present what I had done until now, what I want and what I plan to construct!

Best regards,
 
Good sugestion, similar was my idea! We were writing in the same time and just now I saw your message. I need a lot of time for such messages to be written, using my old brain and oldest knowledge of language, printing with two fingers only (one on each hand)...
 
Hello, there!
Well, as there are presented some of unorthodox solutions, I will posted photos of my quadricycle. This first variant was soon abounded... It could be found solution for entering of rider inside, but my wife didn't like it, her position at first place. Unconformable entrance and seating between wheels! I removed everything and started the second version.








More text in separate message!
Ciao,
 
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